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15 December 2003 @ 02:47 pm
when the war is over ?  
2 things resounded in my mind this morning when liz informed me of the capture of saddam hussein: "yay" and "george bush will be thrilled because now it looks like his war was justified." the capture of this evil leader who has tormented and tortured and ruled his country through fear is good news, yes; but i remain cynical. how do we know another dictator just as evil won't be put in his place, that this is really the end of the terror rulings? how do we know that this will ultimately improve the quality of life for the iraqi civillians? furthermore, is this going to push george bush's popularity up again? does this justify his war, and is this the "coop" he needed to be re-elected? they might not have found those weapons of mass destruction, but are people at the voting polls going to care when saddam has been captured? as a non-american, i don't particularly care who is ruling the usa, save for the fact that our prime minister loves george bush and his sucking up is sickening, to say the least. it makes me sort of disgusted to say that he is our country's leader. if someone else is elected president of the united states, then perhaps our prime minister (if he still is after the next election here) will stop brownosing so much. it wouldn't be so bad if he (john howard) had our country's best interests at heart, but it certainly doesn't seem like it. that's a rant for another time though. so i am glad for saddam's capture, but hesitant to suggest that going to war with iraq was the right thing to do after all, or that i'm glad australia is part of this so-called coalition, or that george bush has done the right thing, because saddam's capture will not be the be all and end all of iraqi misery. i am very cynical of what bush & howard & blair tell their countries, and very cynical of their intentions. i hope all of this will come to a peaceful end, and that everything will be resolved just as they should. but i always did wear rose-coloured glasses.
 
 
 
d-elicatehandsdown on December 14th, 2003 07:54 pm (UTC)
I had mixed feelings about it too. At first I was like "Thank God". Then I was like "He's not the only evil tyrant out there". Bush is one, regardless of his skin colour. Just cause he's white doesn't mean he's right, he's an evil little man. Then there's the Saudi Arabian royal family. And whatever happened to the orginal public enemy #1, bin Laden. I don't know, I don't see why it should get Bush re-elected, I don't think the ends justfied the means in this situation.

I'm writing you a letter btw, but you need to remind me your address, I think I know it off by heart but I don't want to chance it ;) Could you email me it? youjanedoe @ hotmail.

xo
d-elicatehandsdown on December 14th, 2003 08:07 pm (UTC)
yourjanedoe at hotmail even ;)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 14th, 2003 11:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kathleenkathleeniefont on December 14th, 2003 08:01 pm (UTC)
i see the usa as much, much more dangerous than hussein.

it scares me to live here some days. i don't like what bush tells our country. maybe it's the persuasion&propeganda class i took, but i just look at his points and arguments and they don't add up for me. i think we're fighting the wrong war.

there's a lot of danger if bush's popularity goes up. there are things he'll fight to implement if he's in the usa for another term [more than just this war], and i'm scared that my country will see him as such a hero for finding hussein.

maybe i'm just cynical.

who knows.

sorry, i didn't mean to ramble in here. heh.
Annabelledefying_elphaba on December 14th, 2003 08:47 pm (UTC)
you're not cynical, you are correct.
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
Patrickpadraiceen on December 14th, 2003 08:07 pm (UTC)
Dare I ask why you are so cynical?

I've discussed this elsewhere, most specifically in a community for Ivy League students. I think I'm about argued out. Suffice it to say that the Iraqis get to elect their leaders, just like they did before Saddam's coup d'etat.

That said, Bush's popularity numbers had been on the rise since mid-November, due to the recent economic recovery and a slowdown of casualties in Iraq. He didn't need this, but it certainly won't hurt.
    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:10 am (UTC)
i'm cynical about everything these days really. i used to be so naive; i've taken to not taking things at face value, especially good news. heh.

i'm just trying not to be too quick to jump to the notion that "oh good, now saddam's gone, everything is going to be great"; that's where my cynicism comes from. i need to learn more before i make up my mind.
(no subject) - padraiceen on December 15th, 2003 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Annabelledefying_elphaba on December 14th, 2003 08:46 pm (UTC)
Weapons of Mass Destruction (TM)

*laughs hysterically* Perfect ;)


And you're absolutely right about the war never ending. Fighting terrorism is the same as fighting evil, or darkness, or fear. It's an abstract concept that Bush will be fighting for the rest of his life, if he's set on it. It's a war that he'll never win. My parents were just talking about that a few weeks ago.

Oh, and I've seen the map ;)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ko_uta on December 14th, 2003 08:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - crystalina on December 14th, 2003 10:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ko_uta on December 16th, 2003 07:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 16th, 2003 07:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
Annabelledefying_elphaba on December 14th, 2003 08:41 pm (UTC)
Bush's popularity rising scares me as well. What scares me more is how the people here are so blind. Bush is a dictator as well, yet nobody seems to realize it...

hopefully all this will blow over by the time the next election rolls around. Thank god I'll be old enough to vote then.

And, it's a fact that Iraq never had a history of democracy. So the chance of another dictator being put there is very probable. Even if they did get a democracy, they would have no idea what to do with it, and it would eventually collapse and slowly turn into totalitarianism again. Look what's happening in Russia.
    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:31 am (UTC)
yes... that is a good point. although i must admit i don't know a lot about the history of either iraq or russia, so i'm probably not in a position to comment.

i suppose i am just afraid for what will happen next... i wonder how much more thought-through all of this has been once saddam had been captured. it is definitely good that he is gone, but it doesn't mean that everything is suddenly going to be great in iraq or that they are suddenly going to come under a democratic rule.

i suppose i am hoping that things really will work out for the best. hopefully without Bush as well, heh.
ko_uta on December 14th, 2003 08:51 pm (UTC)
*sighs* I know the war will not end. Bush himself said as much. So, I doubt we'll get anywhere. I just hope that enough people see through this "success" to see the real issues: last I heard, church and state were supposed to be SEPARATE. Not to mention that whole gay marriage thing. Even if you don't give us the right to marry, then please just leave well enough alone, don't make us into second class citizens by actively denying us rights.

I just truly hope that enough people see through him to vote him out next year.
Crystalcrystalina on December 14th, 2003 10:32 pm (UTC)
unfortunately, most high-profile democrats aren't any quicker to grant gay rights than the republicans. clinton was the one who signed the protection of marriage act thingy into law. it's just that the republicans are more vocal about it.

i personally think that it's stupid to deny rights to homosexuals, but then again, i'm neither republican nor democrat, so it's not surprising that i get mad at both. :)

oh and separation of church and state means the government can't create a national religion. it doesn't mean that the president can't talk about his faith and such. i, as a christian, don't like the way he does it, but it's not breaking separation of church and state laws.
(no subject) - defying_elphaba on December 15th, 2003 11:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - crystalina on December 15th, 2003 12:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 08:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - defying_elphaba on December 15th, 2003 08:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 08:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ko_uta on December 16th, 2003 07:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - crystalina on December 17th, 2003 10:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
winterswitchery on December 14th, 2003 09:05 pm (UTC)
After hearing about this bullshit for so long. My stance is that it's all much larger than me. And it's grown boys playing a very elaborate and lethal game of chess. And there's nothing I can do to convince them to put away the pieces, have a cookie and go to bed.

So I turn off the television. And let the political sheep follow the shepherd to whatever end. And I'll keep watch in the meadow.

A bad stance, I realize. But it keeps me the least upset and disappointed with the world. Which in my opinion, has always been screwed up. The play is the same, the props and the actors simply change. I have a hard enough time managing my own small world at the moment.

<3s for you, love.
Crystalcrystalina on December 14th, 2003 10:32 pm (UTC)
A bad stance, I realize. But it keeps me the least upset and disappointed with the world. Which in my opinion, has always been screwed up. The play is the same, the props and the actors simply change. I have a hard enough time managing my own small world at the moment.

i'm sorta there with you. well i'm trying to be, because i agree. it's all the same...on and on and on.
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
bellaretta on December 14th, 2003 09:58 pm (UTC)

i completely agree with you, darling.
i've never really in an agreement to
the start of this war in the first
place, but the thing is that my dad
works in the marine shipping line and
he said that if this evil man is not
destroyed, he will destroy us and some-
one (bush) will have to do it. i felt
good seeing the iraqi people jump and
scream in joy when saddam was captured.
sometimes i asked myself if this war was
necessary. i don't know. i've always had
something against war and violence because
it pains me to see people dying. i'm also
quite aware of what are bush's intentions,
and honestly speaking, i'm quite against
him myself. maybe it's just me. like you,
i do hope everything will come to peace.
{soft sighs} God must be really feeling
hurt right now for all the things we human
had done to destroy earth.
    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 12:47 am (UTC)
like you, i am glad that saddam's leadership is over -- but what about his legacy? what about what comes after?

i worry about what bush will do next. his plans for nuclear defence systems and so on scare me. if it's not iraq, it will be someplace else. i fear this was only the beginning(?)

(&i wonder how we ever became this evil, this cruel. you're right, god must be sad)
(no subject) - bellaretta on December 15th, 2003 08:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 08:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bellaretta on December 15th, 2003 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Crystalcrystalina on December 14th, 2003 10:23 pm (UTC)
are you just cynical of politicians in general? because i am.

i worry that for the most part england and australia (and to some extent, canada) will continue to brownnose the USA no matter who is in power. i think when clinton was in power that england at least was pretty much going along with the US too. i feel bad for australians and the british because that's not cool at all. i know that if it were my country, i would be really pissed. i was irritated when clinton did pretty much whatever the UN told him to. it just seems like leaders need to work for the best interest of *their* people, not whomever is above them.

i think saddam being captured is a very good thing. i think that the wmd argument was weak, but an argument that was made just before war was declared (the liberation of the iraqis) was the only good argument for war. i'm cynical, so i'm not convinced that any of the members of the coalition had pure intentions.

however, i was all for taking saddam out of power, so i'm glad it happened. from what we've seen so far, fewer people have died during this war than would have died in that time under hussein. i really felt he was like hitler with all these mass graves and this slaughtering of 100's of thousands of people. yes, there is the risk another just as bad will take over, but there's also the possibility that the people of iraq will remain free. with hussein staying in power, that possibility was much less.

just some thoughts. sorry about your prime minister. :(
    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 01:33 am (UTC)
i am 100% cynical of politics. i get so angry about so many false promises & lies & deceit. i'm sure that not every politician is bad and that some genuinely want what is best for their country and ALL their people (not just the ones with loads of money); but all it seems is one false promise after another and a whole lot of hypocrisy to boot.

sigh. but it IS good to have saddam out.
(no subject) - crystalina on December 15th, 2003 12:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Jess(ica)wisdumb on December 14th, 2003 10:49 pm (UTC)
If there is one good thing every human on the planet can look forward to, it is that a US president can only be elected twice (I leave myself a margin of error in case that has changed or never was so). Therefore, even if Bush is re elected, it isn't for too long.

    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 01:37 am (UTC)
that's a good point :)
lyricsofmylife on December 15th, 2003 10:00 pm (UTC)
hey hun :) i know this has nothing to do with your post, and I feel bad for taking away from that, but I have a new username...and here it is. i just wanted to let you know :)
-kel
    scarlet's walkkisstheviolets on December 15th, 2003 11:38 pm (UTC)
done ! <3